NL-Outsidethebox [confederation]

Scott Taylor is a Liberal?
 

OOPS sorry I was having a bad day and originally thought Todd Russell had made the comments. I had to amend the original post I guess I missed the title from my original post.

Thank You for pointing this out.
 

Keep up the good work
 

It’s interesting that there has been no outcry by members of the Canadian Army over Mr Taylor’s remarks. In fact, the only objection seems to be raised by those who have a vested interest in keeping a military base in Goose Bay open, even when the Canadian Forces has made it very clear that the base is of no use to the military. The reason those in the Army have not taken Mr Taylor to task over his latest comments is that, even though nobody may like them, most CF members know that they are largely accurate.

The men and women of a rapid reaction force are young and almost all of them are single. Those who volunteer for this type of duty know that they will frequently be deployed and they recognize that the duty is dangerous, so they usually delay marrying and starting a family. These soldiers are in top physical condition and, because of both the need for physical fitness and the mind-set required to do the job, they need to stay active. This isn’t normally a problem when they are participating in real world operations, exercises or field training. Unfortunately, because Goose Bay does not have any army training ranges, if an army rapid reaction unit were to be stationed there the lack of activity would cause problems. While this sounds like an insult to the men and women of the Army, it is not meant that way. Historically, army units, particularly those with the most stringent requirements for fitness and operational response, have problems with personnel whenever they are not challenged. These problems have manifested themselves in various forms, but have usually involved the inappropriate use of alcohol or non-authorized substances and frequently result in fighting and / or the destruction of property. Go figure; the CF (or for that matter, any military in the world) trains a group of fit and fearless young people to become a tightly strung team with the sole purpose of fighting an enemy and destroying its capability to resist and then civilians are surprised when those same soldiers fight and destroy things when they are at home. This is a significant enough problem at army bases that actually have their own training ranges and which are close to a divers assortment of civilian distractions in large urban centres; in an isolated location where the main after-hours activity revolves around the local bars, the problem can only be worse.

Before arguing for an army battalion to be stationed at Goose Bay, the local people who are going to have to deal with the problems should do a little research. To start, it may be prudent to ask the people of Labrador West, who remember the construction of Churchill Falls, what it was like when the work crews came to town. Then, ask them if they would have liked that situation to be made permanent. Perhaps the members of any battalion or other army unit that may end up in Goose Bay will take a pledge of abstinence for the duration of their tour and maybe they will be happy using the gym and the library for recreation and the local churches for their spiritual and social support; however, I wouldn’t count on it.

The people of Happy Valley-Goose Bay may also want to consider the modifications required at the base to permit it to become home to a rapid reaction army battalion. The base would once again become a secure facility, which would mean no open access for townspeople. Although creative fencing might permit the local civilian population to use Canadian Forces facilities such as the base theatre, bowling alley, CANEX and gymnasium, this would not be guaranteed. With 650 plus troops required to stay in top physical condition, the gym would likely be restricted to military users only. The local stakeholders should also consider whether they want army training ranges constructed in Labrador. Right now, the area is a tourist destination because it is pristine wilderness. Do the local stakeholders want this forever changed as tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of hectares of this pristine wilderness will be required for the ranges necessary to permit the army to conduct required training?
 

Bloody amazing. I just hope to god your not in the military or have control of any of our troops if this is what you think of our young men and women who serve this country. Tsk Tsk shakes head. Thanks for the vote of confidence NOT.

First of you won't hear our men and women speak out about politics or the military because THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED unless they first go through the PR officer.

As for getting military members who want a posting at 5 wing you might want to check some of the posting preferences from our military members. Even though there are very few postings available in NL no Cadets and milita don't count nice number juggling though for the uninformed you will find all of those NL'ians serving would gladly take a posting to 5 Wing.

If the positions were made available in NL for a posting even the gang member special forces as you like to portray them ( Smacks of Soldiers with guns in our cities Unbelievable) The fact of the matter is most special forces as you refer to them come from rural back grounds and would like nothing better than to be able to live a lifestyle where they could go hunting and fishing in their spare time believe me I was one! The worse postings I ever had were in cities because the cost of living was to high to maintain any sense of a decent life style.

As for your references that Goose is isolated it is that way because of the lack of support from Canada. Canada paid for the Trans continental Rairroad exception NFLD because they built their own and Canada wouldn't anti up to upgrade it to wideguage. Canada paid for the Saint Lawrence sea Way. But Canada doesn't see fit to put a paved road across Labrador or complete the remaining 350 km along the lower north shore with the final intent of driving the final spike in a transcontinental transportation infrastucture.

Rifle ranges already exist in 5WHVGB. A rifle range only takes up a 500 metre by 100 metre foot print with a danger zone depending on the terrain and back stop extending 1 km.

The same targets used in Cold lake are used in 5 Wing in fact the template was taken from 5 wing. Cold lake flys most of their targets into place if anything it would be easier to land transport targets into the 5 Wing than Cold Lake range because the terrain isn't as much muskeg like it is in Cold Lake.

I know of no towns or anything exception being some drill rigs on the cold lake air weapons range. While there may be alot of cut lines and abandoned drill rig locations in cold lake it isn't the end all be all that you make it out to be. No army No Navy for one. As for the combined training at Wianwright a fly by hardly constitutes combined training. No lazer target designation no close combat support fly bys only. I know it is hard for the airforce to come to terms that their major role is army support but that is the fact and the sooner they realize it the better of our troops on the ground will be.

Maybe if we used more lazer designation our CF 18's might actually be of some use to the military and have a reason to replace them as it is the air show stick is growing pretty thin.

The best thing Canada could do to try and include Quebec into Canada would be to put a fully manned army, airforce, Navy base in Goose bay the ensuing traffic through Quebec would help develop closer ties between english and french canada.

There are also lots of other locations in NL Argentia, Stephenville stand out. What the military needs is combined force training areas. Army Navy and Airforce. Maybe then we would be able to utilize and train properly how to best protect our troops and carry out our newest mandate PEACE MAKING.

There just isn't the political will to establish any bases in NL because it would upset to many people who were in Confederation before NL joined. All of the current canadian military bases were already established in Canada before NL joined in 1949.
 

Instead of refuting Anonymous’ assertions that there is truth in Scott Taylor’s comments regarding problems associated with permanently locating a large combat contingent in a small isolated community, NL-Expatriate instead attacks Anonymous. Then, NL-Expatriate states that CF members are not permitted to speak out about politics or the military “unless they first go through the PR officer.” Scott Taylor and his magazine do not represent any political party or any office of government. Furthermore, military members are permitted to respond to comments such as those made by Mr Taylor, which is why it is not unusual to see letters to the editor in any Canadian newspaper written by members of the CF who provide their name and rank. In much of NL-Expatriate's material, he implies that he is a serving member of the CF. If CF members cannot speak out without the permission of a Public Affairs officer, I am assuming that his Blog must be officially sanctioned by the CF – if not, according to him, unless he is no longer a serving member he must be violating orders or regulations.

Militaries worldwide have known since the advent of martial service that operationally ready army units need to blow off steam when they are not involved in operations or manoeuvres. I do not know if NL-Expatriate is ignorant of the facts or if he is being intentionally disingenuous, however if he is truly a member of the CF he must know about a routine known as “Charge Parade” in which Army units run a series of courts martial or summary trials on a regularly scheduled basis because of the volume of individuals on charge. This is common, recognized and accepted practice at Army bases. It should be emphasized that most of the offences are minor and involve violations of regulations pertaining to punctuality, dress and deportment; however, fighting and drunkenness are also very common charges.

NL-Expatriate should realize that he speaks for himself, not all CF members from NL. He claims: “you will find all of those NL'ians [sic] serving would gladly take a posting to 5 Wing.” This is of course false, unless every single person from NL serving in the CF has told him that they would “gladly take a posting to 5 Wing.” Since I’ve met many CF members from NL who have clearly stated that they would never return to their home province to live (although they do enjoy visiting on vacation), I must assume that NL-Expatriate’s assertion is in error.

NL-Expatriate states that most special forces members “come from rural back grounds and would like nothing better than to be able to live a lifestyle where they could go hunting and fishing in their spare time.” He offers that he knows this because he was one. I could find no statistics or studies that indicate NL-Expatriate’s claim is true. However, most of the special forces’ members I’ve met from the CF and other militaries were from urban areas, which include small towns close to larger urban centres. It is impossible to verify NL-Expatriate’s claim that he was a member of some special forces unit; anyone can claim anything on the Internet and, even if he provided his name, the CF does not release information about current or former special forces units’ members.

NL-Expatriate should look at a map before he talks about the isolation of Goose Bay. Whether the road is pavement or gravel, the distance is the same – the town will be no less isolated. The police in the area are concerned that paving the road will only permit people to drive faster and have more accidents. Because of the isolation, anyone involved in an accident usually has to wait a long time for assistance and, realistically, towns are not going to spring up along the road.

NL-Expatriate is partially correct about rifle ranges at 5 Wing; there is one. It was constructed on the old EOD disposal site where unsafe devices kept popping out of the sand at an alarming rate and caused the CF to establish a fenced perimeter. However, it is limited because it cannot be used for higher calibre weapons unless the locals agree to avoid the area that falls in what should be a fenced safety template. This works for the rare occasions that the range is currently used, however, the daily use required by a permanently posted unit would mean that the local inhabitants would have to give up access to the land that falls in the template. Unfortunately this includes a lot of snowmobile and quad trails.

NL-Expatriate’s statement that the target template used in Cold Lake was taken from 5 Wing is false. Most of Cold Lake’s targets were in place years before any targets were ever introduced into the Goose Bay ranges. He also leaves out the fact that weapons can be used on all of Cold Lake’s targets, but in Goose Bay they can only be used on the handful of targets located in the Practice Target Area, a small 7.5 kilometre diameter circle about 100 kilometres from Goose Bay. Because almost all of the Goose Bay targets are “no drop,” their design is unsuitable for use in the Cold Lake weapons’ range, i.e. they are too expensive to permit them to be hit by weapons and frequently replaced. Cold Lake is required to fly some of its targets onto site; however, much of the range is accessible by land through access roads, many of which were constructed for oil exploration. At Goose Bay, all of the targets must be flown. Cold Lake’s targets are all located within the Cold Lake Air Weapons Range (CLAWR), the furthest point of which is less than 100 kilometres from the base. Goose Bay’s closest targets are over 100 km from 5 Wing and up to almost 500 km away.

NL-Expatriate says that he knows of “no towns or anything exception being some drill rigs on the cold lake air weapons range. While there may be alot [sic] of cut lines and abandoned drill rig locations in cold lake it isn't the end all be all that you make it out to be.” He seems to be confusing the Cold Lake Air Weapons Range (CLAWR) with Cold Lake’s Air Training Ranges. The CLAWR is an approximately 11,000 sq km weapons range within which attack aircraft are almost unlimited in speed and altitude. It permits the use of practice bombs on almost all of its 700 or so targets as well as strafing of many of them and the employment of rockets on all island targets. The CLAWR also contains the Primrose Lake Evaluation Range used for weapons systems test and evaluation; the Jimmy Lake academic gun, bomb and rocket range, and the Shaver Lake live heavy weapons range. The only similar area available in Goose Bay’s ranges is the Practice Target Area (PTA), a 12.5 sq km circle centred within a within a 690 sq km circular safety template. Only practice bombs and strafing are permitted at the PTA and fighters are limited with respect to attack headings and airspeed. The Cold Lake Air Training Ranges are chunks of airspace radiating outward from Cold Lake and include the much smaller CLAWR. While Goose Bay boasts up to 130,000 sq km of air training ranges, Cold Lake has about 700,000 sq km and most of it does not have the maximum altitude limitations found in Labrador. Because Cold Lake’s air training ranges extend in all directions from the base for many hundreds of kilometres, they include not just the muskeg directly to the north but also farmland to the south (almost all of the way to Edmonton), east and west as well as all of the towns, cities and infrastructure found within. CF fighters have been doing more and more joint training with the Army and the Navy every year. Joint training is the priority for CF-18s and a far cry from the “flyby” described by NL Expatriate. As for his assumption that laser target designation is not something conducted by CF-18s, nothing could be further from the truth; for over a decade most air to ground weapons training revolves around the use of Precision Guided Munitions. CF-18s routinely practice laser designations and infra-red target identification; one reason why the multitude of cultural targets found around Cold Lake and Bagotville make them so much better locations for fighter training than Goose Bay.

NL-Expatriate states that the “best thing Canada could do to try and include Quebec into Canada would be to put a fully manned army, airforce [sic], Navy base in Goose bay…ensuing traffic through Quebec would help develop closer ties between english [sic] and french [sic] canada [sic].” In case he ha not noticed, Quebec is an integral part of Canada. Additionally, Quebec has already started the process of completing a paved road from Sept Isles to Blanc Sablon along the North Shore of the St Lawrence River. All of the traffic that currently goes through New Brunswick and Nova Scotia from Quebec and west to get to Newfoundland will, in the future, be able to cut straight across Quebec. This will mean a much shorter trip and it will eliminate the need to take the long ferry ride to or from North Sidney, NS. The reduced costs to truckers will see consumer goods prices fall in Newfoundland. Because Quebec does a better job cleaning snow off its roads than the Government of Newfoundland does on the road that connects Blanc Sablon to Cartwright, the people of the Labrador communities left stranded whenever snow blocks the road while the NL government waits for it to melt will be able to make required purchases in the nearby Quebec town. However, because of NL snow clearing policy, they will still have to use their snowmobiles to get there. The ensuing increase in traffic to and through Quebec should satisfy NL-Expatriate’s apparent concerns for Quebec’s place in Canada.

What NL-Expatriate really means is that the best thing Canada could do for NL is to follow his suggestion. However, it would be a waste of money and resources for the CF and the Canadian taxpayer. Canada already has a surfeit of CF infrastructure, even considering the increased numbers of personnel envisioned by the current federal government. The reason that the CF does not currently use 5 Wing and the reason that it never used it operationally is that the facility and its location do not meet any of the CF’s needs; better Army, Air Force and Navy facilities already exist and meet the CF’s requirements. Putting an Army unit in a place with no Army ranges makes no sense, but placing a Naval unit at a location that is shallow, narrow and only navigable less than half the year would be inane. NL-Expatriate’s idea of locating the three services’ operational units in the same geographic region does make some sense; move CF-18s to Greenwood where they can operate with the Army and the Navy then place some in Comox, return the Army to Chilliwack and they can do the same on the nation’s west coast.

NL-Expatriate should more thoroughly research his claims before passing his statements off as fact. In addition to the falsehoods, half-truths and deceptions by omission, he is frequently just wrong as per his claim that “all of the current canadian [sic] military bases were already established in Canada before NL joined in 1949.” Just a few minutes of research on the Internet provided me with the name of a current base that was not established until the 1950s, and I believe there is at least one more. NL-Expatriate’s claims that his suggestions will never be followed because of the lack of political will are no doubt correct. The Canadian taxpayers, 98.4 percent of whom do not live in NL, will not want to see their money used to create military facilities that are simply not required. Really, the only thread I can see running through any of NL-Expatriate’s Blogs is his personal desire to return to NL, but to be paid by the Canadian taxpayer to be there. If he cannot maintain his morale unless he is posted close to his home province, perhaps the military was an unwise career path; the RNC would seem to have been a better choice for uniform service.

In addition to his issues with the government of Canada, NL-Expatriate also showers disdain on the Air Force, particularly the young men and women who fly its fighters. His comments smack of jealousy and seem to be those of someone bitter about his lot in life. In my experience, people in any organization who badmouth fellow workers in other departments are usually stuck in a position that they do not like because they simply could not rise any higher due to lack of aptitude, lack of initiative, conduct problems or personality issues. They usually blame everyone but themselves for their lack of progress. If I had to guess, I would think that NL-Expatriate wanted desperately to fly fighters, but he did not meet the education requirements or he did not display the required aptitude.

I must agree with NL-Expatriate on the apparent lack of political will to do the right thing. Instead of continuously diverting CF funding to keep open the non-required military installation at Goose Bay for the sloe purpose of subsidizing the nearby town, the government should do the right thing and close the base.
 

I noticed a spelling error in the comment I posted yesterday. The last sentence should read I must agree with NL-Expatriate on the apparent lack of political will to do the right thing. Instead of continuously diverting CF funding to keep open the non-required military installation at Goose Bay for the sole purpose of subsidizing the nearby town, the government should do the right thing and close the base.